Dennis 18:56
In your consulting life, then, you're looking back and you're sort of missing this interaction with people, so was it a... Were you really... were you challenged to go to dental school? Were you like, "Yes, I'm going to do it!" Or let me let me throw out some feelers and see if it works! Where were you with that?
Grace 19:16
No, then I was gung ho - I'm doing that! Committed! I was 100% committed. And I really fought hard to get to where I wanted to be. Again, I'm not a good test taker. I'm not in Mensa. This isn't coming natural to me.
Dennis 19:34
Well, if you were in Mensa, you wouldn't be on this podcast!
Grace 19:36
Right! But I mean, I, in my brain, thought dentists and doctors were brilliant academically, and I wasn't that student. And so I fought really hard, and general chem, bio... It didn't really come naturally to me! The only thing that I loved and enjoyed of those academic classes, and I'm saying this to all the students that are listening, I only got A's in anatomy and organic chemistry!
Dennis 20:06
Why do you think that was?
Grace 20:08
I don't even know! Well, for anatomy, it was the dissection, figuring out how things work... Again, I like to figure out how things work. And in a puzzle... And I think Organic Chemistry is a puzzle.
Dennis 20:21
Oh, for sure. What I remember of it.
Grace 20:22
Right, so for me, that was the way my brain thought. So I was good at those things. But then you put... give me something else, then I wasn't so great at it. But I didn't let that deter me to get through dental school. So, once I started interviewing for dental schools, I narrowed it down to Maryland and Case Western, and you have to go visit the schools, and you have to visit the students, do your research and figure out what it is you want. And back then, when I was doing it, the research I found was Maryland was a very big school on clinicians... Like putting you into the clinical area quickly, like pushing you clinically. And there were some schools that pushed you with research.
Dennis 20:58
I went to Michigan, and Michigan was a big research school. So, we... That was a lot of our education.
Grace 21:02
So I really wanted to be the clinician. I was like, I know I can do that. I know I have the skill sets to be an amazing clinician, if I'm trained correctly. And when I went to the school, I walked in, and I just knew I had to be there. It was that feeling of this is where I'm supposed to come. And I did my interviews, and the squeaky wheel kind of gets the oil. That's just the way my parents raised me. So I would call the admissions office. I was like, "Did you see my chart yet?"
Dennis 21:54
You know, I think this is a good point. And I did the same thing. When I was at Michigan, I wanted to go to Michigan dental school. And so I would go and visit the academic advisor, the the admissions director, all the time! Don was his name. And I'd be like, knock, knock, knock. "Hey, Don! Dennis Hartlieb here. I know I won't be the first one in, but are you going to be able to find room for me?"
And I think... So for those of you who are listening, it does make a difference. It does make a difference. So you don't want to be annoying. You don't want to pester! But you want to make sure that they know that you are... you're in it! That you're going to do what it takes to be successful. And they need to know that because it's really hard for these admission directors; they get so many applicants, and on paper, everyone looks the same. So yeah, you have to... You have to put yourself out there. And it's scary.
Grace 22:45
It is scary! But you have to! And the thing is, if you think about it, admissions to any type of thing, whether it's college, or dental, or medical or whatever... There's 1000s of applicants, and how do you stand out? Because everyone's going to be basically a good student... Everyone's going to have the same... I did tennis, I played piano.
So for me, it was being one year out of college, I went back and said, "I'm serious about this! I already took a gap year. I am going to be a professional mature student, I would like to attend your school. I'm very interested. I know I'm out of state. However, this is the first dental school in the world. And that to me is a privilege to be able to attend this school." And I wanted to make it very clear. So I did call a few times. And so, the day I got the letter of acceptance, that was so great. And it was my first time living away from home, too. And I remember Cecile being like, be mindful, like Cecile wanted me to go to UIC.
Dennis 23:49
Sure. Because it's local to Chicago.
Grace 23:51
Right! And she's like, because that's where you're networking. That's where your network is. People know you. That's where you established roots, and part of dentistry is networking, establishing relationships with your colleagues.
Dennis 24:04
Isn't that the truth!
Grace 24:04
Isn't that the truth? She's like, if you go to Maryland and try to come back, it might be harder for you. And so, I said, I know Cecile! I get it. But I'm like... But you're here!
Dennis 24:17
Yeah, one person, one person!
Grace 24:20
Right. So I was like, I know you, so anyway, I took the chance! And I went. Best experience ever! Still in contact with my professors there. Still email them, still see them if they're in the area, and loved my education! And so fast forward, coming back to Chicago, I missed home. I wanted to go to Children's but when I applied, Dr. Gerado was then the chairman. So immediately I was like, "You know me!" You already...
Dennis 24:47
A connection!
Grace 24:48
Yeah, I'm like you already know how I work. How I was like... I was responsible. I showed up on time. I did everything you told me to, and you've trained me before. I I want it. I'm all in, you know?
Dennis 25:02
Let's take a step back. I'm curious about when you're in dental school because... For those who are looking to get in or those who are in, everyone has a different experience in dental school. I went to Michigan in the 80s. And I tell you it was it was rugged! It was the old style, old school style of teaching that, fortunately, I don't think is very prevalent any longer. And I will tell you that none of my classmates will look back fondly at the experience of dental school. I look back fondly at what I learned, and the dentist that I was able to become, and the connections I made with my classmates. I loved that.
But dental school was pretty painful from a lot of our perspectives. But I think in the newer, newer generation, things are getting... are much better. And I think it's more collegial. I think things like the white coat ceremony have been really helpful to give dignity to young dentists. And that wasn't really afforded back in the old days, you know? So when you were in dental school, and I'm curious, because we're going to get into the Mommy Dentists in Business. But I'm curious... When you walked in, what was your class ratio of females to males? When you when you walked in? Was it fairly even or was it more highly male? Do you recall?
Grace 26:16
From my recollection, I don't recall. But I do want to say it was at least between 30 and 40% women. So we had quite a few. And for me, my experience was hard, like you said, where I was trained by a lot of Navy dentists... There are a lot of them in that area. And so we had a very strict rigid program as well. And it was hard. And, again, all the students listening out there. My first year after winter break, when I came back, one of my professors said, "I'm surprised you're back." She said, I didn't think you were going to come back. Because I struggled. I struggled with the academics. The only thing I was good at was lab.
Dennis 27:12
That's what saved me as well! Yeah, the didactics were not my specialty, you know, not my forte.
Grace 27:17
The didactics weren't my forte. And the thing is, Dr. Sam Yoon, saved a whole jar of teeth for me that he extracted. I showed up to school with this huge jar of teeth, from centrals to canines to pre molars to molars. And it was the coolest experience. But I struggled. And where I shined was clinic. That's where I shined. And I even finished all my requirements a semester early.
Dennis 27:49
Oh, that's great.
Grace 27:50
So that was really neat. But I...
Dennis 27:53
Do you remember what your first dental procedure was that you did on a living patient?
Grace 27:59
Dentures. Okay. That was my first patient, he needed dentures. And he was an author of a book. And he needed teeth to smile for his book.
Dennis 28:08
Fantastic. How rewarding is that?
Grace 28:12
It was so rewarding! And he says to me, and he was the sweetest meal. He says to me, "Have you done this before?" And I said... I looked him dead in the eye. And I said, "Yes! Upstairs."
Dennis 28:27
What I used to tell my students was when people ask you that, you say, "I've done a number of these." Now the number could be zero! And it... You know, you don't have to tell the whole truth. You just have to give a partial truth. "I've done a number of these." And if you've done two, then you laugh. You say, "Well, I've done more than one of these." And you've only done two, but that's okay! So you do have to embellish a little bit to get through the early days.
Grace 28:51
So me being just so honest, I said, "Yep. Upstairs." But anyway, he didn't care. He was totally fine. But that was just... That was really super fun.
Dennis 29:01
I think dental patients themselves are angels, talking about angels earlier... So, I think... The things they let us do to them! Grace, when you were in your undergrad dental school, did you know you wanted to go into pediatrics? Was that sort of where you were shooting for right from the beginning? Or were you thinking also ortho?
Grace 29:17
I was thinking ortho! I was thinking ortho, but then again, Cecile being ortho and then her brother Tom being perio, and their dad being general, they're like you should do pedo.
Dennis 29:27
Because they saw how you interacted with the children?
Grace 29:32
Right... they said you were really good with children, but also because they were like, there's a ton of us in different specialties; you should do pedo! And I felt like I was already maxed out with ortho, like I felt like I already... And during dental school, I worked in the private faculty practice for the Chairman of ortho at Maryland, Dr. David. So he wanted me... I volunteered my hours, and I even got an award at graduation. And I did ortho for the faculty practice. I worked with the residents. I mean, I knew how to put brackets on better than the residents. I was teaching the residents. And so...
Dennis 30:15
Was your thought then that hey, I can do pedo. And if I want to do ortho, I already have the skills to do ortho.
Grace 30:20
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, that's what I thought. And I figured I would at some point work with Cecile. But by the time I got back to Chicago, she was already selling her practice and moving to the east coast. So it never really panned out that way, but I honestly didn't. I honestly didn't feel the need to learn more ortho.
Dennis 30:43
Sure. Makes sense.