From college dropout to garbage collector to cosmetic dentist

Dennis Hartlieb: Hello Dental Online trainers! Dr. Dennis Hartlieb with you again for another Sharecast. Thank you for joining us. Today, I have a special guest, a really good dear friend of mine, Adamo Notarantonio, DDS, FICOI, FAACD, and I think you got some other initials. So welcome to our Sharecast, Adamo. Thanks for joining us. So for those of you who don't know Adamo, then you're not on social media. Because Adamo, you're an inspiration to many of us who are also on social media. I'm a fan of you and your work. And so without further ado, I just want to start talking to you about your journey. In cosmetic dentistry, and just through your journey overall.

Adamo Notarantonio: I actually have a really cool intro video I put in my lectures, and I'll be happy to send it to you. I think you would enjoy it. It's just you know, me around the office. And I was interviewed by my two friends from Venezuela that I taught photography with, and they asked, “Why did I become a dentist?”. And my answer was, “I didn't want to be a garbage man.”

I graduated Cornell in 1996. And my degree was in professional soccer. I really wasn't into school. I played a little ball for about six months after I saw my paycheck and realized that I had to do something different because I didn't sign a contract like the major leagues. So it wasn't that profitable as much as I enjoyed it. And it was fun.

So I went to work and showed up at my father's office. My dad drove a garbage truck. My mother was a secretary. They both came from Italy, when my dad was 17. My mother was 12. So they didn't go to school. My dad finished fifth grade, I think. I showed up dressed up [at my father’s office], and he looked at me and he said, “What are you doing?”. I said “I'm going to work for you.” He said “No more school?”, and I said “I think I'm done.” He said, “Okay, you can work for me. But go home and put the crappiest clothes you have on. I'm gonna make you wish you never closed the book.” And he put me on the back of a garbage truck by myself for a year and a half until I got into dental school. And I literally picked up 750 homes a day by myself. I was in much better shape than I am now. I might have to go back and do it.

But yeah, I honestly didn't know much about being a dentist. My parents are both immigrants from another country. And I think I went to the dentist twice in my life, which just wasn't a big thing. I had a friend who was my fraternity brother, and he had just gotten into NYU. He was a first year, and he's like, “Listen, apply to dental school. And I'm like, “Anthony, I wouldn't even know what a mirror or an explorer was. I have never even been to the dentist.” He's like, “Don't worry, you'll love it.” So I applied, and I ended up getting into NYU and Stony Brook. I went to Stony Brook and the rest is history. I was hooked the minute I got there.

Dennis Hartlieb: You know, I think dentistry is such an interesting profession because I think there are sort of two paths that people go into. One is you come from a family of dentists or you're influenced by a strong person or family member that's in dentistry. And then the others, which I think is probably the greater majority of people like you and I. So my dad was a mechanic for GM. And I remember I was changing an exhaust system on my sister's Mustang in the winter, and this would have been probably ‘74 or ‘75. And it was freezing out. We didn't have a garage. We're working in the driveway. The car is up on ramps, and we're changing the exhaust system. I must have been about 14 or 15. So we're working, and my hands are freezing. It's awful outside, and my dad leans over and looks at me as we're underneath the car. He says, “Den, this is why you're going to dental school.”

Adamo Notarantonio: Exactly.

Dennis Hartlieb: I had sort of a similar experience with either my parents who were also high school graduates. And they were, you know, they had modest backgrounds and stuff. So that's very interesting. Yeah. And sometimes it does feel like we're in the salt mines. But we're fortunate that we aren't actually in the salt mines.

Adamo Notarantonio: I couldn't agree more. I mean, I love those days because I had a six pack like nobody's business, but now I don't, you know. I tipped my garbage man very well at Christmas because I know what that work is like. I mean, yes, we work hard in our eyes, but that physical labor is I've never seen anything like it. It's really difficult.

Dennis Hartlieb: Yeah. We are glad to have you in the profession.

Adamo Notarantonio: Thank you.

Dennis Hartlieb: So tell me I always ask this of some dentists. What is the first dental procedure that you did? It could have been dental school afterwards, the first dental procedure not including a prophy.

Adamo Notarantonio: First dental procedure was an occlusal amalgam on my father.

Dennis Hartlieb: Outstanding. How'd it go?

Adamo Notarantonio: I think, well, it's still in his mouth. So he hasn't complained.

Dennis Hartlieb: That's great. Does he pay for them now?

Adamo Notarantonio: No, he gets free dentistry.

Dennis Hartlieb: All right. What year was your graduation from SUNY?

Adamo Notarantonio: So I graduated 2002. I stayed and did an AEGD residency there. And then I was asked to stay on as chief resident. So I did a second year residency there where I was certified to place implants, and they certified me in Invisalign. And I actually love removable. So, I wanted to teach removable, so I worked in the removable course with the faculty there for a year, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

Dennis Hartlieb: So then you would have gotten into practice around 2005 or so.

Adamo Notarantonio: July 2004, was my first year in practice.

Dennis Hartlieb: And then how did you get into practice? I think this is interesting for young dentists who are coming out. I've been teaching at Marquette for over 25 years. And I think a lot of people's expectations, it sort of that they will find the perfect practice when they get out of school. And I tell people that can happen, you know, you can meet your high school sweetheart and marry your high school sweetheart. But most often, many of us have to date for a while before we find the right person. And I think that's true of dental practices. So, how did you get into your dental practice? Tell me about your journey.

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah, so I wasn't looking for my high school sweetheart. But I am one of the ones who got lucky. I was supposed to open a practice with my co chief resident in my hometown, and that just didn't work out. We both went different ways. And totally fine. We were the best friends still. But work wise, we just had maybe different visions, and we decided not to do it. And maybe not to even risk damaging the friendship that we have because we're like brothers. So he ended up going to work somewhere else.

I actually called one of my professors from dental school who had the practice in Long Island he just built from scratch. It was maybe a year old from the ground up and a beautiful, beautiful office. I went there just to shadow and say, “Can I just see what it's all about?” Because I think I'm going to go on my own back in my hometown, which is about a half hour from my office. And when I came, he sat me in the office and said, “Listen, I mean, good luck, I think you're gonna do fine. But do you want a job?” and I was like, “You know what, maybe I should work a little before I just go open an office.” And I started at my job full time. He hired me, and I was the fifth associate at the time. And I've been here ever since. After about three and a half years, I became a partner. We ended up taking on another partner, and then my original boss partner, we bought him out and he moved down to New Orleans. He had gotten remarried and, and made a change of life. So I have a younger partner, so a couple years younger than me, but I taught her in dental school, and she was a phenomenon back then. So it's just two of us. Now we have one associate, my fourth associate retired during COVID. But yeah, I'm lucky I walked into a fee for service already built, a lot has changed, I think, with my growth with my partner's growth as to where it started. But I think overall, the backbone is, is the same. So I really didn't have to do much. So I'm one of the fortunate ones that kind of fell into great office right out the gate.

Dennis Hartlieb: So I want to go back. You said you were the fifth associate in the practice, meaning that there had been four associates that didn't work out, and you were the fifth one or there are four other associates in the practice when you walked in the door.

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah, great question. Sorry, I'll clarify that it was my partner, three associates who worked here. Four other doctors. And I was the fifth.

Dennis Hartlieb: Right. So it was a busy practice. There was a lot of dentistry going on. So let's say I'm a young dentist, and I'm getting into a practice like that, where there's other associates? How do you make yourself stand out from the other associates in the practice, like you're the new guy in? And I'd be concerned during the practice when there's already several other associates? How am I going to get patients? How am I going to stand out? What did you do?

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah, that's a great question. And you know, it's funny, I get that asked that all the time. And people like, well, “What did you do? How did you get so busy?”. And I think in the beginning, before I knew what continuing education really was, because out of the gate, I didn't know anything. Sure. I hustled. I would stay here 12 hours a day, or I would leave and I would go out to restaurants and bars and I'd give away free bleaching. I do whatever it took to get someone in the door and see someone with a broken front tooth: “I can fix that for you, and I'll do it no charge!” and take a before and after and then start you know, going from there. I probably gave away more dentistry in the beginning than money.

But I think you know, there's something to be said about that. There's a respect for doing the right thing. I think my patients now still realize, and I still have some of the ones that I did that originally too, and they appreciate my growth and where I've gone, and they have no problem paying now. I mean, maybe they didn't have two nickels to rub together, right when I did that for them. There really is no secret sauce. It's hard work. I mean, you have to hustle.

Dennis Hartlieb: Well, that's it - hustle. If this is not an indictment on our current generation of young dentists, this is I think been true since I was a young dentist. Also, I think, commonly, dentists will go into a practice as an associate, and then just wait to get fed. Just sit there and say, “Here's my bowl, feed me patients,” not understanding that if they want to be successful in the practice, they have to go earn it. And I hear all the time from colleagues who have young associates in the practice that the associates aren't helping to build the practice. Students who I've worked with, I've tried to influence them that you have to build your practice within that practice. Because it's rare you're going to walk into a practice where there's a full time practice just waiting for you. I mean, that maybe by death, or maybe by retirement, that will happen. But I think those opportunities are pretty rare. I think you’ve got to hustle, and you gotta be hungry. And you have to build a practice within the practice.

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah. We both have residents, right? And the resident is an animal. I mean, she works as hard as I do. She's unbelievable. And I mean, I have to beg my patients because “I'm so busy - please let her see you. Otherwise, you're not seeing me for six weeks; I just can't do it.” And that's about the only chance I get that they actually listen. I mean, you just got to go get it, you have to hustle and go get it. I'm not going to come to your office and say “I'm here to see Dr. Hartlieb to do a class II and let a resident do it,” and they say “Anybody crazy?” and I say “No, no, no, no. I know. I know the doctor. I know his work. And I want him to do it.” But I don't think many hustled the way you did when you first started, or the way I did when I first started. And, you know, I think it shows, you know.

Dennis Hartlieb: Yeah, this is challenging. I think one of the concerns for young associates going into practice. They don't want to build up their current dentist’s practice. It's like, “Well, what's in it for me?”. Well, I think what's in it for you is your opportunity to become part of that practice. So if you like that practice, if you say, “Man, I see myself in this practice,” then you have to grow your practice within that practice. And yeah, the senior dentist is going to help by referring emergencies and referring stuff when they're too busy. But boy, I cannot impress on my young dentists enough, be hungry. If you'd like to practice, build your practice within that practice. People like to get too worried about “Am I building up this practice? Is it going to cost me more when I buy in?”. I think those are issues that those things I believe will work themselves out. If you're having a good relationship with the owner dentist. I think you just have to be hungry.

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah, I agree.

Dennis Hartlieb: I'm super excited to talk to you about the residency stuff. I want to ask you something else first before we get into the AACD and the residency. So I know that you're very influenced by Pankey. And I know you're very influenced by Kois. And so I get this question all the time from my young dentists – “where should I go for CE after I graduate”? I want to get them to see the value of CE - because I really push the kind of study group that I work with for years at Marquette. We would meet after hours, and we would just go through what was basically a mini AGD we would do in the evenings. And my touchpoint was always about CE and learning from the best. I would spell it out - I'd say there's four really principal training programs when you get out - we talk about Spear, Kois, Dawson, and Pankey . Those are sort of the four. There's other good ones out there also. Obviously the stuff you and Amanda are doing with Impres, that I want to talk about in a little bit, and DOT, but those are sort of the four big biggies. So how'd you get started with Dawson? That was my influence first also.

Adamo Notarantonio: That's a great question. We had a study group in my office with a local periodontist, oral surgeon, about three or four general dentists-- one who you'll know Gary Alex. Gary just retired, but he practiced a mile from me, and we were in a study group. I had done a case with my periodontist. I presented it, and Gary walked up to me after and he said “You have unbelievable hands, but you know nothing.” So, I was like, “Great, awesome.” He says “I want you to go to Dawson and learn occlusion. And I'm going to take you to your first AACD meeting.” And my first was Atlanta, I want to say it was 2006 or 2007, something around that. Yeah. So even before that, I'd done Dawson in like a year or year and a half. I just went turbo straight through. And I would go to Gary's office, like, every week with a case of mouth models. And I mean, he was my first and original mentor… was without question, Gary. He really pushed me. He helped me with anything I wanted to do and was in competition being that we're a mile away. He'd refer me patients. I mean, I was like, “Wow, I mean, that's, that's pretty humbling.”

So that's how I got started with Dawson. And then another guy in our study group was doing Kois. My partner had gone out to Kois, she loved it. So I said, “You know what, I was flying out to Hawaii to take my written exam for AACD, and it just worked out that there was treatment planning for Kois, the weekend before. So I made a West Coast trip, I went and then for three days with John, I was hooked. I couldn't wait to go for it. I didn't rush through it. It's a lot. Yeah, sure. Oh, it's financially a lot. And it's time consuming and a lot of information. So it took me about five to six years to finish the curriculum. I didn't do it as fast as I did at Dawson. But yeah, I was pretty blown away. The first time I met John and heard John speak. And I've been that way ever since.

Dennis Hartlieb: What do you say to young dentists who say “I can't really afford to continue my education”? And look, I mean, one of the reasons why I started DOT was because I'd heard that frequently. And I wanted to offer very affordable courses where people wouldn't have to leave their home, where people could do without the cost of travel, without shutting down their practice, leaving their families and all, but I do think there's a critical place for these in person programs. But what would you say to people who say I can't really afford it? What do you say to them?

Adamo Notarantonio: You know, it's funny. Amanda and I get that question a lot in our courses. One of the things she tells the young dentists is she, you know, her husband's very good financially and in business, and they check their budget, and she took a loan out to be able to do the CE that she wanted to do knowing where she wanted to end up, which I think is a brilliant option. You know, you have a budget every year you can spend this and you choose where you want to go.

Now a lot of the young people that ask questions that I see on social media, and to me it's a huge problem with social media and Instagram is they want it done so fast. It's like you see the before and after, but you don't remember, or you don't even know what went into that process and the thought process and the treatment and the history, and you see a beautiful before and after. And these guys, I mean, the messages are like “What camera do you use? What composite do you use?”. I'm like, “Do you know how many classes I had to do to be able to do it at the level that we do it now, right?”. So you don't have to finish twice in one year, you don't have to finish a course, in two years, you could take one course a year for eight years, and really implement it slowly. And then do some online stuff if traveling is a lot for you. But you can figure out your budget every year, whether you have the money, or you borrow the money, you're investing in yourself. To me, there's no better investment. I'm going to gamble on me every day before I gamble on anybody else.

So I think what Amanda did was brilliant. She saw her end goal. She knew year by year, this is what I can afford if I take on it. And she did it. And you know, when I was young, single, I didn't really have any financial other responsibilities. So I invested in myself professionally. And it was a good time for me to do it.

Dennis Hartlieb: Yeah, I think that's a real challenge. We get out of dental school, and we believe that dental school should have set us up for our lifetime of learning. And that's what I've worked so hard for all these years is to help these students understand it's just beginning to help us learn to become to help us understand how to learn. So when I started with Spear , that was my very first thing. And I remember it took me a full year to pay off. And this was after Frank and John had sort of split off. And I was in Frank's first course in his office in Seattle. Bob Winter was there, and there's 10 of us around this big conference table. It literally took me a year to pay that off my credit card. But that was sort of I knew I had to do it. It's not inexpensive. There's a little bit of pain involved. But you know, like most things, like working out, pain is part of the process.

Adamo Notarantonio: 100%.

Dennis Hartlieb: Yeah, and I appreciated it. I mean, I look back at that course and how it influenced my thinking and my learning. And I remember how much that cost. And I remember those payments on the credit card. But it was worth every penny. And that's sort of how I took it. And I had a very humble, very modest practice. When I started out, I didn't make much money at all. And we just had to scratch and claw and you know it, I knew the end game and that for me was this is where I want to get to, and this is the pain point I'm gonna have to go through to get there. When you started with Kois, you had your foundation with Dawson, right?

So you had an understanding of joint based dentistry, which many of us don't have when we get to dental school, we just think about teeth. So where did Kois play into that then? So he had sort of this joint base dentistry did quite sort of reaffirm that, and I know John's really great at helping understand how to make dentistry more predictable. What path did Kois set you down that you were not that sort of added to your experience from Dawson.

Adamo Notarantonio: So yeah, that's a great question. I think I got probably one of the one of the most comprehensive joint based dentistry education courses you're going to get at Dawson. I mean, it was just outstanding and was all focused on that. And, you know, I know the curriculum has changed a little now. But I, when I got the course, for me, it was more understanding the systems of everything else. I thought I was pretty solid in the joint based area. And I was comfortable that way. You know, the way he looks at it and treatment plans, and some of the steps to get there are different. I mean, not many teachers are better than Dawson. So I was good with that.

But I think, you know, reviewing his dental history and seeing how just off of that he already knows, “Are we looking at joint issues or not?” Implementing that perio in my practice. All my hygienists are two of them have gone to the course already my partners are graduating, and my associates going. So it's been, I think, more implementing that, and getting systems in the office, which really took us to another level in my opinion. But in terms of the joint base, I think, I mean, I was very well trained at Dawson. So I had a leg up on anyone who didn't take it when they got to the course.

Dennis Hartlieb: And that's been my recommendations for dentists who are getting into this stuff. I say my personal opinion starts with Dawson or Panky. Get a good joint base occlusion understanding. Though I know Jim McKee, my good friend who I interviewed previously, he's at Spear now. So Spear’s really jumped into joint based stuff, and I imagine Kois is also doing more joint based information as well. But before getting into any of the aesthetic stuff, understand Joint Base dentistry, because it's going to make your aesthetic stuff so much more successful.

Adamo Notarantonio: And again, dentists that go right back to Instagram, right? You know, you see these before and after pictures that look great. And then you're like, “There's no possible way you get from a class three to a class one without giving me some good explanation of how you did that.” Because we know functionally, it'll look good in a picture on Instagram. But I'd like to see that in a year or two we're maintaining.

Dennis Hartlieb: Exactly, yeah. And that's a part of my CPR for the Worn Dentition course we go through. So much of that, how do you support the bite? So you can do the esthetics? And that's what I got that from the combination of Dawson and Spear.

Adamo Notarantonio: Exactly.

Dennis Hartlieb: But I think it's like you talked about courses with systems. I don't know if anyone does it better of course than John, I think, understand systems. And he teaches systems probably better than anybody out there. So yeah, I hear that from everybody in the stuff that I've learned from John, I agree that that's awesome.

I want to talk about the AACD. Now because you mentioned that you went your first courses and we're Dawson than an AACD. So who brought you out to AACD?

Adamo Notarantonio: Gary Alex.

Dennis Hartlieb: Gary did. So what were your thoughts when you first went to your first AACD meeting?

Adamo Notarantonio: I was blown away. I almost think I was either done or had one Dawson course left. There was a panel with I believe it was Bill Dickerson, Pete Dawson I forget who the other two but it was an occlusion panel and I was in the back of the room like “Wow!”.

But what really got me was the Accreditation Showcase photos in the lobby, a lobby when I saw these ‘before and afters’. I remember looking at them and going “I hope I can do this dentistry”. And I was blown away. Gary was the only accredited person in my county for one years. Obviously, the test was a bit different than it is now. But uh, I remember looking at those big cardboard cutouts that they give us when we finish and I was like, “Wow!”. I thought I was a pretty good young dentist at that point. I mean, I love staining and glazing and dental school. I stained everybody's crowns. I was just into the art side of it. But when I saw that stuff, I was like this is another level and I need to get there.

Dennis Hartlieb: Young dentists that are maybe they've heard about the AACD. But again, the AACD is not inexpensive to go to the annual meeting. You have to absorb the fact you have to just be comfortable with the fact that you have to invest in yourself like you said, “I'd rather bet on myself than anybody else.” So it's not inexpensive. But there's so much value in these meetings. What do you tell young dentists? I'm sure you must hear “I just can't afford to go to the AACD.” How do you respond to that?

Adamo Notarantonio: Well, you know, in a polite manner. I kind of try to tell them, “Listen, what's your end goal? Where do you want to be? If you were telling me you want to be the next Amanda Seay, or you want to be the next Betsy Bateman or Dennis Hartlieb or anybody on that level, if you don't invest, now, you're going to get caught up in a pattern. And you're never going to get out of it. You're going to like making a few bucks doing posterior fillings or stuff like that. And it's never going to change. And you're going to be the guy or the gal that says, ‘I don't really love my career.’”

And for 10,15 years, I mean, we've been doing this quite some time. And I see you're not slowing down. And I know I'm not. And it's because we lit a fire within us that not only do we still want to get better every day at what we do, but we want to help people get better. And I think that's the ultimate goal of the perfect profession. I mean, we don't love dentistry every day, right?. But I think at the end of every day, I'm blessed, that not only I get to help people, and I get to educate others to be better. I mean, I wouldn't change this for the world. So I tell them “Listen, if, if you really have those aspirations, you gotta work harder than you ever possibly could. Because you have the word ‘Dr.’ in front of your name doesn't mean anybody hands anything to you.”

Big, big problem is, “Oh, I'm a doctor, I'm out of school, I want to make 150k.” 150k? Do you know many posterior composites you're doing to catch the production to do that to start? When you started in practice, as did I, what did we do fillings, a couple of fillings? Bleaching? We look at our schedule now that there's not many one hour appointments. There are four and five hours appointments. It's big, but the education, the time, the practice that we put in over the years to see our schedule like that. I mean, nobody just handed that to us.

Dennis Hartlieb: And it doesn't come without time investment and financial investment.

One of the things that impressed me about the AACD-- I've been in since 1997-- I think what impressed me about it-- so I'm used to going into say the Chicago Midwinter meeting, the Greater New York Dental Meeting, sort of these big sort of regional meetings, city meetings. The energy of those meetings are so different than when you walk into an AACD meeting. The energy is incredible. What I also found with AACD, is I could be sitting down at the bar, just grabbing a beer and the person next to me, we could just start talking, they could be from Vancouver, Washington, and we could just have a conversation and people shared, people would just talk about what's going on their practice. They ask your questions, we'd share information “What materials are you using?”, “ What techniques are you using?”, “Who do you see who's really good?”, “Who should I see?”. And there wasn't like this, like you talked about Gary Alex being open to working with you, even though you're a mile away, I found in the AACD, that people are just so giving and generous that that there is there's a very little concern about not about scarcity issues in dentistry., People in AACD know there's more dentistry than we can treat with our hands. And if there's somebody next door that can also do this, there's more patients that we can treat in our populations. And we can both be successful, where I don't see that same sort of energy when I'm at these bigger meetings and stuff like that. Yeah. And so I think it's a great influence meeting for people who want to get into this. They can share they can be influenced by other people who are doing the same thing that we are.

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah, and I think another thing that sets the Academy apart, is having hands on courses.

Dennis Hartlieb: Exactly. And I tell people that too.

Adamo Notarantonio: You know, you've gone “Whoa, ready to go Monday morning.” And you know, you're right. I mean, everybody is helpful, like most people that play a bigger role in the Academy are also educators, right? So, we want to give back and I mean. You talk about bumping into people at the bar. I remember San Francisco, I'm sitting at the bar, this guy comes up next to me. And I saw the badge so I figured I was about to turn around and say I before I could say “Hello!:, he's like “How are you? Nice to meet you.” And I'm like “Christian Coachman just turned around and said ‘hi’ to me,” and I wanted his autograph.” The most humble, nicest guy. He had a drink with me for 25 minutes and in a hole in the wall. And no idea he was even part of the Academy. I mean, it was just amazing. Totally amazing.

Dennis Hartlieb: Yeah. And for young dentists who are, I mean, we've all been awestruck-- I was like that. I remember going to first meetings and I remember going to meetings like the Academy and being blown away by people. I think at this meeting in particular, people are just so open and friendly and people just want to be warm and welcoming.

So yeah, you started out with how you're influenced with the accreditation process. Talk to me about your accreditation process for dentists who are on the fence about this. I have two questions: If you're eager to get into accreditation, what do they need to know?

Adamo Notarantonio: That's a great question. So the website has a lot of good resources, and you can download stuff. I mean, I’m very open. I answer a ton of questions on social media. So, anyone, contact me and ask me and I'd love to guide them. If you call the Academy, the girls that are in the credit department, Kim and Lisa, are outstanding, and they'll get you everything you need. To me, I'll be honest, I know you've taken probably more CE than I have. And we've gone to the best of the best. In terms of training your esthetic eye, I don't think I've ever been to a course, mine included, that you get that real time on your patients. If you work with the right mentor, I owe my esthetics experience to my mentor Brad Olson , you learn more.

I learned more from the emails back and forth of sending my PowerPoint template to him and looking at cases and him saying, “Look at the line angle here. The gingival height discrepancy. The values in the cervical third.” And I'm like, “I just matched them. Isn't that all I have to do?” But you know, as the first email he sent me back was four miles long when I thought I was going to pass the case, type two with eight nine on my hygienist because the shade was tough . But I forgot about the other 85 things that were wrong with them. But I learned more in that one email. Because I listened to him and he wanted to mentor me. And every email got a little shorter because I got a little better. And I knew before I wrote it back. “All right, Brad, I like this case, but I think the axial inclinations are off. And maybe the values are a little different. I don't think it's gonna pass, but I think I did good.” And he's like, “Are you learning?”.

That's, but now I look at a case. And I mean, you know, as an examiner, in two seconds, you're seeing things that most people wouldn't even dream of looking at.

So I personally believe that. It's a great process. That's a fun week at the annual meeting. And I learned a statics like, I think no other going through that process with an unbelievable mentor. I don't know if you could pay for that because I don't think you can get that close to one-on-one, as you do with it with a candidate mentor.

Dennis Hartlieb: Yeah, I agree. The two things I try to stress to people when they're looking at accreditation is one mentorship, I think is absolutely critical. And the second thing is that you have to lose your bias. And one of the biggest challenges I've had when I've been mentoring people through the accreditation process is getting them off their bias. Right? They come in, I think, well, this is a case that's going to pass. And then you have the hard conversation and you go through all the bullet points, right? This is a minus two on this minus four on this. This is why what I'm seeing, and when people are not open to change in their biases, and how they're looking at their cases, it can be a real challenge to help them want, understand what needs to be done to get better. And so those are the two things I talked about mentorship and just losing your bias, understand that what you're seeing is great, but it's not enough. And unfortunately, you have to hear the hard news of what needs to be done to make it better. And that's really challenging for all of us, but some people are ready for it.

Adamo Notarantonio: I've had both sides of the coin where I've had one one mentee, in particular, stick out of mine, a gal from the west coast. And I let's say in the year she sent me 10 cases to evaluate. And I did exactly what Brad told the way he did it to me. And when I said “If it was me, I wouldn't do it.” She didn't do it. She went 5 for 5 in two submissions, because she could do it but she also showed me five or six that weren't on par. But she listened and she started to understand that.

She then started saying “Okay, I'm going to change this for the next case.” And I have others that have their bias. They don't believe exactly what you're telling them, and I get it it's a hard pill to swallow. I don't mentor people and give them deductions because I'm trying to make them feel bad. I'm trying to get you to see things you may not have seen and train you better and better and better. I took every hit and I sent Brad way more than five cases. He said plenty of them back where I was humble pie for the next two or three days. But man that I learned from those it was it.

I think it's an unbelievable process. It's hard work, for sure. But it's rewarding both in the fact that you achieve an awesome goal. But I think people overlook how much you actually learn, how much better your eye gets. and how much better you get with composite doing case type five. I mean, how many teeth can we make in that case? That's a whole different world. Right?

Dennis Hartlieb: That's been a challenge for my resident to understand. He’s awesome, but it's like, dude, keep on going back. I don't know how many cases he has built up on typodonts. It's a ton and he's still not done. And I warned him when he came in I told him that he'd be doing a lot of work on typodonts. It's different when you're actually doing it over and over and over. Yeah. I was remiss in mentioning that you’re the head of the accreditation process - the Accreditation Chairman.

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah.

Dennis Hartlieb: So that's, that's incredible. I cannot imagine the time you put into that, that's a whole other issue. The amount of time that you have donated to the AACD through the board, and through what you're doing now with the accreditation process. What I've tried to help people understand is how, in my experience of being an examiner, how much we want as examiner's to get people to pass.

Adamo Notarantonio: Oh, yeah.

Dennis Hartlieb: And when I was on the outside looking in, I thought it was just the opposite that the AACD is trying to keep us from being accredited. But I will tell you in all the cases that I've been involved in through accreditation, we are actively trying to find ways to help these participants pass. Talk a little bit about that as the accreditation head and what that means.

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah, you know, and I agree with you, Dennis, I thought the same thing from looking out in. I hark back to my first case with Brad and the “ps” on the bottom said “97% of dentists would kill to do work like this keep it up.” And I was like, “Wait a minute,” and he said “Adamo, there’s great dentistry. Then there's accreditation dentistry.” It's just this much above it.

But it's doable. There's a zone of it's not an ultimate pinnacle. There's a zone, it doesn't have to be perfect. It has to be within the zone. And I think I would be frustrated because I'm like they don't want us to pass. They want to be a lead. It's the exact you set a perfect. That's the farthest thing from the truth. I mean, we want 20,000 accredited dentists. Not 450,000. But we would take 450,000 if people delivered in that zone of excellence. And, you know, we see how we're calibrated and how we're trained.

Dennis Hartlieb: It's incredible. People have no understanding, no idea. I had no idea. It's incredible. I'm blown away. I can't talk enough positively about the accreditation process. It's incredible.

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah, but we want people to pass. But we also take pride in the fact that if we're giving out an accreditation in cosmetic dentistry. We want you and your patient to feel like they're getting the best from the best. It's just not something we just handed out because you sent me one before and after. I mean, if you know the process, it's a process. And it's passable for anyone. If you work hard enough, anybody could do it. The ones that stop, I think, they give up. I would do anything to get them back on the train because I don't think they realize how rewarding it is and how much better of a dentist they're going to be by finishing the process. But yeah, if you're 100% right, this is not about keeping it elite.

This is not about not getting people accredited. The more the merrier. Believe me, we want it. Because we want the pride of the Academy, we trust and believe in our process. Those of us who have seen it from the inside know how hard and how much work we put in and how fair we try to be towards it. But you know, it's an exam. Not all exams are perfectly fair. But I think we do a pretty good job of keeping it fair and giving everybody a fair chance. If they if they follow suit to pass, I firmly believe that.

Dennis Hartlieb: It's hard. It's a hard exam to get through in all five cases. It's a challenge. It's a challenge for everybody I've spoken to. So, there's two questions. The first is for dentists who're eager to be involved in the accreditation process. What about the ones who are fearful? How do you communicate with the young dentists or even experienced dentists that says, “You know, I want to do it, but I don't know. I don't know if I'm ready to go through this process,”? Any words of encouragement? What do you say for the people who are fearful about it?

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah, you know, we, Amanda and I, when we lecture, I usually start the intro, and I try to do something a little motivational talk about a book that I read or my life story, and I mean, I couldn't be more picture perfect. I mean, we had no background in dentistry, right? They didn't teach us cosmetics in dental school. We sought education from the best. And we probably have done more plastic teeth than most people have done real teeth in their lives. And I show the class every time. There's nothing that any dentists on this planet can't do. It's a question of, are you going to put in the work? Do you want to work hard and do you believe in yourself? Because if you do, you can do dentistry just as good as I do. I mean, sure and better. For veneers. Of course I do but you forget that I saw it after an unbelievable ceramics that I work amazing with. And it's a teamwork. It's not just me, you know. And do I do good composites? I think so. But again, I did 100 Class IV’s on a plastic tooth after I left Newton Fahl course at AACD or Brian LeSage, Frank Milner's case type V course . I went home and I practiced on plastic teeth right now. And I think that's what people overlook now, in this age where you can touch everything on your phone and you get an answer in two seconds. They want to be great dentists in two seconds. It's never gonna happen.

Dennis Hartlieb: No, no, I like pointing out that you think about someone like Tiger Woods or any professional golfer. They all have coaches right there. They're out there practicing. It's not like, you know, professional golfer, professional pitcher, or professional football player, anyone who is a professional, they don't just go out on game day and expect to just be able to nail it. They are practicing. They're being coached. They're working hard. dentistry is tough stuff. Man. I tell you, I do not know anyone that was born with a dental drill in their hand or an artist's brush and knew how to do it from day one. We've all had to learn. For some of us, it's easier for some of us. It was more challenging for me, it was super challenging to learn all this stuff. And like you said, I've done more plastic teeth than most others have done human teeth.

Adamo Notarantonio: I don't doubt that for one second. I honestly don't. You mentioned Tiger Woods in one of these books that always put #TalentIsOverrated. And they talk about Tiger in the book. And one of the lines that fascinated me was they said by the time he was 12, he hit more golf balls than the average pro does by the time they're 30. I mean, that's insanity. That is, you know, and you wonder why. Why was he that good? He outworked everybody. That's it.

Dennis Hartlieb: Yep. Talent is important but talent is outdone by work.

Adamo Notarantonio: 100%.

Dennis Hartlieb: What do you see as the future for the cosmetic dentistry, associate cosmetic dentistry, and AACD? What's the future going to look like to you?

Adamo Notarantonio: You know, I see a positive future. I definitely think it's going to grow. It's funny. One of the one of the things I noticed during this pandemic was a little rise in cosmetic dentistry in my office, and I was surprised. And the answer was, “I saw myself on Zoom and didn't realize how bad my teeth were.” So right. I mean, I guess we got something positive out of there. I mean, as time goes on, you know, people want to be healthier, people want to look better, they want to look younger, I don't see cosmetic dentistry going anywhere. And I hope that the Academy continues on a positive path that it has and is able to deliver education to develop people that can give the public what they need.

You know, I'm not a big fan of the fact that anybody could put a cosmetic dentist on their sign, because I think there's a huge difference between someone going to your office and somebody down the street. I’m not saying that they're not a good dentist, I'm sure they are. But to be trained at the highest level of cosmetics takes a lot of effort and time. So there's no way anyone's going to tell me that the fact that your sign says a cosmetic dentist, and the guy down the street says that you're not trained the same. And, and the public doesn't know. That's kind of sad to me.

I hope that is somewhere we go. I would obviously be a huge advocate of that, because I believe that the public deserves it, you know. You're not just going to any doctor for plastic surgery. You're doing your research. They have credentials and guidelines, and I think that's needed in cosmetic dentistry as well. So I think the future is going to be bright. I think, you know, the world is always gonna want to look better and look younger, and I would love to see it a little more controlled so that the public gets what they deserve.

Dennis Hartlieb: And you know, well, it's like this. And obviously, all of us can do Invisalign in our practice. All of us can do ortho in our practice. And I know some general dentists who do beautiful ortho. And that's great. And you can build your practice through that. But there are orthodontists. So for the layperson who's going into it, they can say “If I want the perfectly trained person or the more experienced train person, then I'm going to find someone who's board certified orthodontist.” Now if you have a relationship and you've seen cases from someone who's doing some beautiful ortho even though they're not an orthodontist, that's great. But if there would be some value in saying, “Hey, this is someone who has gone through a process they are doing, you know, great cosmetic dentistry, they are accredited or they're whatever. As cosmetic dentists, it doesn't mean that the other dentists can't do awesome dentistry."

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah, exactly right.

Dennis Hartlieb: But it does for those who are out there looking, it does help sort of lay the groundwork on that there. This isn't just something that you should be dabbling in. And for those who decide not to go through whatever process they can still do great cosmetic dentistry and they can build a great practice that way. But I do agree with you: it'd be nice to have some sort of delineation to help the layperson figure out what to do. I want to talk briefly about the residency program. So fill me in on how it's been with your resident - talk a little bit about if someone was looking to become a resident in the AACD. What does it look like? What are your experiences as a mentor through the residency program?

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah,I was one of the first on the bandwagon, and I saw a positive opportunity. I mean, it's health and education every day. If somebody would have told me that I could follow Pete Dawson every day for two years, I would probably have paid him instead of getting paid whatever little that the resident gets paid, or Gary Alex or any of our other mentors. I think it's priceless, to be honest. The work that we give them is great, but I think the chairside clinical than watching us do cases, how we handle when the problem comes up, seeing us interact with staff and patients. Those are all things we never learned in school.

So the business side of it, I think it is an added bonus that I don't even think they realized they were going to get it but I mean, my resident, I'm so blessed with her. I mean, this kid works so hard. I mean, she helps with our courses with Amanda. She is here. And she does an AACD photo series on one of my staff every day she has for literally a year. She documents that her photography skills have gotten incredible. She's making videos now for the Academy for promo - I mean, she's just a sponge, and she wants it all. She practices.

The other day I walked by an operatory, and it looked like a Hollywood film studio. She had two video cameras and a ring. I'm like, “What are you doing?”, and she's like, “Well, I'm gonna practice a class IV, and I'm going to film it for Clinicians' Choice, because they sent me their hands-on box.” And I'm like, she was in it for three hours. She would say “Doc, can you look at this? I don't like the line angle,” and I’d say “You're right.” And then she would cut it off. And she'd do it again. So I think not only the education, dental wise that she's getting the exposure, the cases she's seeing. I think also the business side and handling day to day is huge.

Dennis Hartlieb: Yes. I think it looks easy. On the outside. I think that one of the things my resident appreciated is the challenges of running a practice. Especially since we've had major issues post COVID and rebuilding our team. And I don't think he had any appreciation for that. I've been doing this for 30 some years, and we're still rebuilding our team and getting the awesome team that we want to have. And I don't think from the outside, you can appreciate that. Being inside and seeing the interview process and having new team members come in that have failed and having to make, you know, difficult decisions and some easy decisions. I think that's been something that he was not anticipating. So that's I would agree with you 100%.

All right, Adamo, I want to talk about a few more things. Before we finish up. Number one, I want to know how you got interested in dental photography. Where did that come from? Because I know that's something that's a true love of yours. I see the image behind yours that I'm assuming that you took that'd be an image behind it.

Adamo Notarantonio: It’s actually a pretty fascinating piece of artwork that my patient made for me. It's actually three dimensional and stitched. It's unbelievable. I mean, it's...I can't even it doesn't know justice behind me. But yeah, that was one of the first artistic photos when I got into lip art a few years back, but so I was an anti-social media guy. I hated social media. I had nothing. And about four or five years ago, my IT guy was like “You have to do something.” I'm like, “I don't want to do it. Here's my password, you do it.” And my former assistant was like, “Doc, why don't you do Instagram?”. I'm like, “What's Instagram?”. Right? Like, put up like a before and after right? A little whatever. So people started following and following back and I got into it. I was just doing your basics. I mean, I knew how to take solid office photos, like ACD photos, but I had no idea on the artistic side. And I kept seeing these images from two guys from Venezuela. And I was like, “How do you do that?”. They weren't artsy. They were just stunning photographs, you know, a little art but nothing crazy.

So I messaged them, and I said, “I don't care what it costs. I'm flying you both to New York. You can stay in my home. I want you in my office for two days. I'll pay whatever I don't care. But I need to learn how to do that.” And we became instant friends. They're like “What is this? That one has Eduardo De Agüiar and Jesus Ostos. They are both from Venezuela. They have a course worldwide called “When The Pictures Really Matter”. And I teach with them in the States or anywhere that's English speaking. They do a lot in South America and so on and so forth. So, they flew to my office.

We were in my office for two days, and after about 30 minutes, I was mesmerized. I was hooked. And I didn't put my camera down ever since. And literally like, two weeks later, they messaged me and they're like, “I don't know what you ate in the last two weeks, but your photos went from good to outstanding. Teach with us.”. So, it was at that point, I started getting into the lip stuff. And I started playing around with lip art. I was probably one of the first to start doing it. But I was hooked. I've been ever since I'm, I love it. I mean, I think one of the things that is overlooked is people see the lip art and all the artistic stuff I put on Instagram, but they don't see the other 3000 pictures I take every day for practice, right?

The importance of cameras not for putting a flower in someone's mouth and taking a picture. That's art. And that's fun. And that's great to be expressive. But I mean, I know you would say the same thing. I can't practice without a digital camera. It’s essential for patient communication. It's essential. I think not only did it bring out an artistic side of me, but it really stressed the importance of how important a camera is in day to day life and, and now withe free marketing, basically. I mean, I built my lecture circuit and, and everything off of Instagram. I mean, I like to advertise anywhere. It's just from my own photos and publicity.

Dennis Hartlieb: Yep. So, I like to cycle. And when people ask about photography, and getting into the art of this super fancy photography, I say, “You know, when I started cycling, if I would have clipped in on my first bike when I was five years old, I would never have ridden a bike again.” I believe very strongly that you need to have some very good strong basic photography skills. Before you start clipping in, and you want to get on a road bike.

So what's, what's your advice for someone getting into basic photography? Where do you go for that? I mean, we have a really great course on doing it. My partner Chris Ching did a really beautiful introductory course for DOT. If you want to do live stuff, what do you do? Where do you go? What's a great live course? What advice would you give for dentists who want to get into photography? At the basic level?

Adamo Notarantonio: I don't want to be biased and say that Amanda and I have a really good photography course.

Dennis Hartlieb: That’s great. I'm happy to hear that.

Adamo Notarantonio: I have a two day photography course. And honestly, you know, people think like, “Oh, it's two days. We're going to do artsy,” and it's really not. It's very basic in the morning. I mean, we go through maybe three hours of just taking ‘accreditation views’. Just simple retracted smiles and how to use a camera and with a ring and a twin flash, no fancy lighting. So, we spend a ton of time on lab communication. We do some artsy stuff, don't get me wrong, and portraits and how to market yourself. But in a two day course. I mean, I think you get all the basics there.

I mean, let's see, Miguel Ortiz has an online photography course. He's fantastic with a camera. My boys, when the pictures really matter when they're in the US, again, we do a good solid morning of basic camera setup and function. So there are some really good hands on stuff out there. I mean, even the course that Brett Mattison does at AACD for accreditation, that's a great meeting. That's a great basic because he keeps it really simple. And teaches you how to take those 12 views [AACD accreditation], which I take more shots like that than I do lip art any day of the week. I mean, that's our everyday bread and butter.

Dennis Hartlieb: I think one of the big things for people to understand. And what I've tried to help people understand is that you have to practice photography, learn the basic skills, but you have to shoot 1000s of photos to be able to understand camera angle, cropping, proper vectoring that is just practice, practice, practice looking at your photos, critiquing your photos in reshooting.

And that's been something I think people don't understand. I think they just take a photography course that can come out and they're going to be right great at it. And in my experience, I started shooting photos back in back in ‘91 . I'm thinking and it just took years to understand how to create the proper photographs.

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah, I mean, and it goes back to like, for example, let's say I signed up for your composite course on your online stuff and sent me the material and I did one class. I'm like “Great, I have nine patients next week.” I'm an idiot, if I actually think that I'm going to get those patients, right, “I'm going to take your type of tooth out.” And the way I'm going to get good is “I'm gonna cut it off again,” and do it for 30 days straight. Then maybe try a patient. Like you said, the education we offer is, I think, great. But it's what you and I say in every class.

We just had a class for composite course live in Charleston last weekend. And we showed them four different techniques to build up a class IV. “Guys, you're going to learn more about composite in color right now than you did in all dental schools. However, if you go back Monday and take a plastic tooth and do it, you just wasted all the money you spent on this course. Don't try to do it in the mouth in three week.”

You have to do one a day, take 30 minutes, build it up, even if it's just the shape. So you start to get the shape. Then start playing around with colors and layers. But if you put it down, like if you take our photography course, and you don't go back Monday and take an AACD series on your hygienist or assistant, you're never gonna remember a thing, how to arrange, how to crop, how to angle, what's your distance and magnification.

Dennis Hartlieb: You gotta practice. Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. For some reason, in dentistry, we're taught that we learn it once, we do it once and then we're proficient at it. And I don't understand that. I've had to in my career, any technique that I've done, I've had to go back and practice, practice, practice to start to get some mastery of the technique. So thank you for sharing that because I agree 100%.

I want to talk about the rubber dam, because it's sort of a dirty word in dentistry. When you got out of dental school, no one would talk about a rubber dam. No one wanted to admit if they used a rubber dam. Yeah, the rubber dam is becoming a little sexy lately. People are taking great photographs or really demonstrating great quality use of a rubber dam. So were you someone who came out of dental school still using rubber dams? Did you put it down and come back to it? A lot of people stop using rubber dams. Talk to me about rubber dams.

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah, I was definitely not one to put it down. I always loved using a rubber dam. And then the reason I love using rubber dams was the first time I used one on my dad. He said “Don't ever do dental work on me without that thing.” So I didn't isolate the way I do now. I obviously learn new techniques and different dams. I didn't even know that there were different thicknesses. I didn't know anything. But I always, always, always used a rubber dam properly, probably not as well sealed as I thought it was. But I gave the effort. Right. I definitely didn't put it down.

Yeah, I mean, there are some outstanding isolations on social media that you see. And you're like, wow, you know, it takes a little bit of time. I learned from the phenomenal Victor Guerrero. He's outstanding with the rubber dam. And I had flown to Chicago. He was doing a course in Spanish, and I know Rolando from Bisco very well. So we talked him into sitting in with me for a couple hours and ended up being like two hours. He taught me the rubber dam in like, two hours by his computer. He is a super gentleman and great educator. And I was hooked again, just like with the camera. And I went back and I tried to take isolation to another level. I have to say, I mean, I didn't realize how helpful it really is to do it at that level. It's like good photography, right? Like how easy is lab communication when you don't have to take great pictures.

But I always thought like “Oh as long as the dams on, but now understanding bonding differently and better than I did come out of dental school. I really appreciate the intricacies of the rubber dam and how it's isolated. And you know, Amanda, that I do teach a course on isolation and I mean, I tell everyone if my veneers fail I promise it's not going to be from my bonding protocol now. No way. You know, I have a patient coming and I just looked at my schedule ‘cuz I'm at the office Monday and it said one of your fillings popped out that I did like six months ago I guarantee it's the tooth behind it. Right, ‘cuz I know how I bonded it. There's no way the filling is out of our mouth. Yes. There's some outstanding clinicians on social media doing some crazy rubber dam stuff. It's Yeah, pretty amazing.

Dennis Hartlieb: Yeah, pretty sexy these days. That's kind of hard to believe the rubber dam is sexy.

Adamo Notarantonio: I know. Right? Yeah. Hello blue. It just opened my eyes now.

Dennis Hartlieb: With the orange floss it's pretty awesome. All right, I want to talk about the courses that you're doing with Amanda. Talk to me about the courses that you guys are doing and what participants would expect to learn from your courses?

Adamo Notarantonio: Yeah, so when Amanda and I put this together, our main focus was that we wanted to be authentic and real. We don't want it to be a one company infomercial. Although we have a lot of companies that help us which is amazing. You know, we bought all of our instruments that we use in our office and we made our own kits and so on and so forth. Now we do have you know, companies like Bressler donates a verb lock that Amanda designed. So we definitely have sponsorship. Don't get me wrong, but we are not as you know, when they come like the class for course we have this weekend.

They try five different composites in five different companies, and we tell them “Listen, it's not the arrow. It's the archer and see how you like it. You might not like the way it handles you can mix and match. I mean, it's resin you can figure it out.” So we always tried to be as open and real as we could. We have right now for different courses.

Our class IV is called Synthesis. And we teach four techniques. We have a Synthesis II which we do diastema closure and injection molding with smile design incorporated into that. We have Kaleidoscope which is a two day photography course. And we have a course called Nexus, which on the first day, we actually have Rolando from Bisco. He does a full day on bonding to every substrate you could think of. And then the second day is rubber dam isolation and cementation. They'll cement inlays, onlays, veneers all in a six unit case under ideal rubber dam isolation. Then we are actually in the process of developing a new course for next year, which we're going to call blue blueprint and it's going to be prepping temp inlays onlays. veneers, crowns and anterior posterior.

Dennis Hartlieb: Awesome. That's great. I know you guys have really done a great job in training people and teaching. I've heard great things from people who've taken your courses. So keep up the great work. That's awesome. If people want to reach out to you and learn more about these courses, I know you're easily found on Instagram as is Amanda.

Adamo Notarantonio: They can can email me. My email is adamoelvis@gmail.com, the same as my Instagram name. So I'm pretty easy to get a hold of.

My website is adamoelvis.com, or our courses with Amanda is ImP.R.R.E.S. But yeah, DM me, email me, anything. I'm usually pretty quick to answer and be as helpful as I can.

Dennis Hartlieb: Perfect. We'll create a link on this Sharecast so those who are watching can easily find you. Adamo, I cannot thank you enough for sharing your insights and experience. You've really just given us so much great stuff today. Honestly, I'm so grateful that you really have just sort of been open and honest. You've shared your experiences and the challenges and stuff like that. And I can't thank you enough. I think this is really great for those who are going to watch this. They're going to understand that the journey to be able to do wonderful dentistry is not overnight. It's a lifetime. It's a career. It's a profession. And you really just show that in spades. And I'm really grateful you spent this time with us today. Thank you so much.

Adamo Notarantonio: It was truly a pleasure. I had a great time. And anytime you want to chat again, I'm always here.

Dennis Hartlieb: Alright Adamo, thank you for joining us and for our Dental Online Trainers. We look forward to seeing you at our next Sharecast. And look forward to meeting you at our next courses. So thanks for joining us, and I look forward to seeing everybody soon. Thanks again. It's been great chatting with you today.